My Take: Q5 and Q7 numbers got worse overall, but not by much. AFS didn’t lower the MF enough to compensate for the drop in residual value; therefore, you will probably pay a few bucks more this month compared to last. I’m not seeing any cash on the Q5 or the Q7, but the usual 2.9% and 3.9% APR loans for purchasing are available. If I where shopping for a Q5 right now, I would probably go with the Q5 Premium Plus, 36-month, 12k miles per year, AudiCare (to add 1% to residual). That would put me at 50% residual @ 0.00105 or 2.52% APR. Not bad, cheaper than most auto loans rought now. I don’t think MSDs would be necessary, but an aggressive sale price will be in order to keep things low. Close or at invoice is what I would aim for since Audi does not have holdbacks and there is no dealer/customer cash anywhere in sight. As for the Q7. I would personally go with the TDI Premium Plus on the following terms: 36-month, 12k miles per year, AudiCare. In addition, I would drop some multiple security deposits to bring down the MF further. Q7s are thristy trucks, so opting for the TDI would be wiser in my opinion. If you don’t care about the fancy bells and whistles on the Premium Plus, you can also opt for the Premium which will boost your residual 3% and lower your payments significantly.
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2010 Audi Q5
2010 Audi Q5 3.2L Premium
24-month | 15k miles | residual 56% | .00105 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 49% | .00105 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 42% | .00230 base money factor
2010 Audi Q5 3.2L Premium Plus
24-month | 15k miles | residual 54% | .00105 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 47% | .00105 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 40% | .00230 base money factor
2010 Audi Q5 3.2L Prestige
24-month | 15k miles | residual 51% | .00105 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 44% | .00105 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 37% | .00230 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7
2010 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI Premium
24-month | 15k miles | residual 59% | .00208 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 52% | .00208 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 45% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI Premium Plus
24-month | 15k miles | residual 56% | .00208 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 49% | .00208 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 42% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI Prestige
24-month | 15k miles | residual 53% | .00208 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 46% | .00208 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 39% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 3.6 Premium
24-month | 15k miles | residual 57% | .00163 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 50% | .00163 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 43% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 3.6 Premium Plus
24-month | 15k miles | residual 54% | .00163 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 47% | .00163 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 40% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 3.6 Prestige
24-month | 15k miles | residual 53% | .00163 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 46% | .00163 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 39% | .00228 base money factor
2010 Audi Q7 4.2 Prestige
24-month | 15k miles | residual 53% | .00208 base money factor
36-month | 15k miles | residual 46% | .00208 base money factor
48-month | 15k miles | residual 39% | .00228 base money factor
Yoooooooooooooooooo G. Hope all is well. Love the site. Trying to replace my 2007 Q7 with a new lease deal – same car. Love the keyless entry so I think that throws me into Prestige package. Basically – local dealership is offering $1000 over invoice (per Edmunds). MF is 0.00163(3.9%?) and residual on 42 month lease is 46%. I’d prefer the 36 month lease. I assume that’s the best I am going to do? You think the deals get better in December (my car not up until Jan 2010)?
@jeff. hey! thanks! glad you like the site. I think $1000 over invoice is WAY too much right now. Audi’s don’t have holdbacks, but $1000 seems a bit unrealistic for them to ask for us consumers in this economy. Personally I’d go 36month lease over a 42 month lease. At 42, you will probably have to change your tires, so that will end up adding to the overall leasing cost. I don’t think deals are going to be better in December. It seems many of the automakers are going to run the same lease rates in Nov and December, changing them come January 4th, 2010. So you have some time to make your decision. My wife’s lease is up in May of next year and I am already hunting for her next car. It’s always good to start nice and early so you have options.
Hey Guys,
My lease is up in December on my Q7 07 white. I’m also looking into 2010 model 3.6 prim plus with 19″ or 21″ wheels/ cold weather package. What would you consider as a good deal? I checked overstock dot com and you can get a vehicle without any negotiation at invoice like G mentioned above. I assume you can probably get a better deal at the dealership.
I was at few dealerships and I tried to negotiate sealing price (on the lease) as many people recommend and for what ever reason it does not work as you would negotiate your monthly payment. You always get higher #. For what ever reason the result is better when you negotiate your monthly payment. Do they have better RV and MF what we don’t know about? I’m looking for 36m/10k deal MF 0.00163 / RV 50% So far I’m at $720/month with $4000 out of pocket incl taxes, DMV, etc..
Any comments? What do you guys think? what deals did you get?
Alex, if you negotiate the selling price, you have to have the dealer exclude all inception fees from the deal. I always recommend that people pay inception fees upfront, to keep the lease loan easy to calculate. That way you can predict the monthly payments more efficiently. If you start rolling fees in, things get a bit more confusing since some fees are taxable and others aren’t. It also leaves more room for dealers to bundle hidden fees. Lastly, you always have to reconfirm your lease rates.
I will say one thing about negotiating payments. Only do so AFTER you have determined a realistic range for the payments. I usually calculate my payments in advance using a target sale price and the lease rates for the month (excluding the inception fees). If it falls within reasonable range I want to pay, then I will probably call up the dealer and request the sale price I used in my calculations. You also need to factor in any rebates that are available (in this case, none).
Here’s a quick calculation:
MSRP: 59,025
Sale (invoice): 54,952
MF: 0.00163
RV: 50% (at 10k per year)
Monthly (before tax): $844
So right off the bat, if you paid inception fees up front (which I would estimate to be about $2000-2500), your monthly payment before taxes is $844, if the car is sold at invoice.
For every $1000 you start putting towards cap reduction, you will lower the monthly payment by about $30. If the dealer is offering $720/month with $4000 at signing, chances are, he/she is dipping below invoice in order to move the Q7. Talk to your dealer and ask him/her to show you the numbers. I usually like to stare at their computer when they are playing around with the numbers to get me a good monthly payment. For the last couple leases, I started negotiating the sale price more so than the payments and I’ve gotten excellent results from it. Remember that leasing is like buying, if you negotiate the price, the monthly payments will drop.
Excellent reply, Thanks G so based on your reply $720 w/$4000 down is a good deal…
just to let you know there is a loyalty credit of $1000 still available for all lease programs
Also my Q7 07 has low mileage of 14k. do you think they will be interested to buy out from AFS? pay off is 30k. Someone told me I have equity in my car and I can make few bucks on it… does it make any sense?
yes, if you are far below your miles, you might want to use your car as a trade-in instead of returning it. Check with your dealer to see if they would take it as a trade-in and see if your payoff amount is lower than their trade-in offer. If so, you will get some equity out of that lease. In the off-chance that the dealer may not want to buy off the car from you since you have to return it next month anyway. If that is the case, shop around with another dealer to see which one is willing to work with you. I also know that Carmax will buy cars from you without having you buy one from them. Hopefully you have one in your area.
excellent. I’ll go to Carmax. it’s one hr away (to drive) from NY. Hope they will offer at KBB value.
Thank you again for the valuable information
no problem. I tried getting a weekend job at Carmax last year. I didn’t pass the personality test. Maybe too honest? I dunno. Haahaa.
I spoke with an Audi dealer regarding a Q5 lease and was informed that the S-Line option drops the residual by 2%. Is this correct? For example, a Premium Plus 36 mo would be 47%, but adding S-Line drops it to 45%.
Thank you in advance.
that is correct. the residual value of the s-line is lower. why they do that baffles me since if given the choice, i’d opt for the s-line instead.
G,
my $720 deal mentioned above did not work. when I came back to the dealer they start playing with different numbers and since my current leased Q7 had an accident (passenger’s right door was replaced) they did not want to do the trade-in. New numbers for Q7 2010 are $780/month $4200 out of pocket incl taxes on prim plus with 19″ wheels. I still did not get a chance to go to Carmax yet.
Also I keep hearing from stealers that new Q7s are in high demand and there are very few in stock. It is hard to believe that these expensive Q7s are in high demand especial in this economy.
Need help to get a new Q7 please help 🙂
Do you think December will surprise us with better RVs and MFs? When do you think you could post new #s
Thanks man
Alex
Wow, that’s a shocker. Well, It looks like they certainly played with numbers alright. Did they say what changed? $720 with $4000 drive-off is a lot less than $780 with $4200 drive-off. I think the only way to find out what the dealer is doing is dig up every number they are using. I don’t think the Q7 is in high demand if you ask me, but then again, demand is regional so I can only speak for my area. I will say this though, That’s one expensive SUV. Try to get the MSRP, Sale Price, MF and residual value used to calculate those payments. Also ask for all the fees you will be charged. You are entitled to know what you are getting paid. All my dealers show me those numbers when I work with them, yours should not be any different. Knowing what you have to pay is your right as a consumer.
To keep things simple, just calculate your payments based on the MSRP, Sale price, MF, Residual and apply your local sales tax. The end result should be your monthly payment, if you do not roll any of the drive-off fees in. Just pay them upfront. $4000, in my opinion was MORE than enough. I suspect the dealer was getting creative with the math in order to get the payments as high as possible.
As for numbers improving this month. I wouldn’t count on it. However, it is possible that in the last 2 weeks of the month, some customer cash could be thrown your way. Just keep your eyes peeled for that.
Yes, G I’m aware of all of these calculations. Salesman told me my payment will be $780/month no meter what the sale price is. He is not a smart man. I think I should ask for different sales person. This is at Bell Audi in NJ. They are very aggressive.
Are new rates available yet? Hope to see some improvements…
Thanks again, G
Alex
@Alex. What? $780 no matter what the sale price is? Is he kidding? That’s like insulting your intelligence right there. Something like this happened to me too, this Acura dealer told me that when you lease, the sale price doesn’t matter. Who does he think he’s fooling, right? Anyway, I now make it a point not to do business with not only that dealership, but also their entire ownership group. I think the way dealers are really comes from the top. Its a culture thing. Anyway, I don’t think Audi rates will change this month since all the promotions are carrying over to early January. If I get any sort of info confirming this, I will update it on Audi’s December lease rates.
G, I have a quote for a 2010 Q5 premium plus lease for $539 + taxes. The details are:
36 months & 10k miles
$4,900 down includes taxes & title
I get 6% off the MSRP through the Audi Supplier Program. Do you think this is this a good deal?
Hi Veronica! Welcome to the site! The difference between Invoice and MSRP is about 7%, so your discount of 6% means you are paying an “over-invoice” price. That is generally not a very good deal. Another thing. You are paying $4900, which is way too much. Unless you live in the NE (i.e. NY/NJ), you shouldn’t be required to pay your sales taxes up front, so there isn’t really a need to pay that much right away. Most states apply a “use tax”, which is taxes your monthly payment on a monthly basis. Based on your quote, it seems that’s what happening ($539+tax). Why would you pay taxes upfront and then pay taxes again per month? Right? What’s happening here is that the dealer is taking $4900, paying the inception fees and then applying the remainder towards cap reduction. That is NOT a good idea because in the event of a total loss accident or theft, you will be out of the $4900 you put down. Insurance will not cover that. Now back to your inception fees…The typical inception fees for Audis should be: 1st month payment, bank acquisition fee, dealer documentation, security deposit (sometimes this is waived), state/county fees, dmv registration. That is pretty much it. Generally, this adds up to no more than $2000. It would be wise for you to have the dealer break down all the fees. It is not uncommon to hide hundreds here and there of undefined fees (dealer profit) when getting quoted a “down payment + monthly” quote. Dealer have a lot of flexibility on how to manipulate the numbers to their advantage, so the more you know, the better.
Here is what you should always know before you sign the dotted line: 1) MSRP 2) Sale Price 3) All Inception Fees 4)Money Factor used 5) Residual Value used 6) State sales tax percentage.
Hello G,
Ok. I am the proud owner of the worst BMW lease in history, which is up towards the end of this month. At the time, 2 1/2 years ago, had some stuff going on and essentially was taken advantage of by the dealer. However, this time I want to be smart about it and am looking at a Q7. I’ve read tons of stuff on leasing (btw, found this site to be the most informative), but am still not 100% sure what I should be looking for in terms of price. I’m looking to get a 3.6, premium plus w/ cold package. MSRP: $53,400. Can you tell me what would be a good deal for this lease? What I should look for in terms of sale price, fees, residual, etc.? I do live in NYC though, which I understand makes a difference. Thanks in advance for your help!
@jay. Sorry I couldn’t get back to you sooner.Had a really busy weekend. In any case, glad you like the site and find it helpful in your lease negotiations. Now your Q7 lease’s payments will vary depending on how much you can knock off the MSRP. The MF and residual are normally be what I post every month (I don’t think the Q7’s lease rates have changed in Dec. If they do, I will revise them), but you should still reconfirm because some dealers do in fact pad the money factor a bit to make a profit. In NYC, your sale price will probably be slightly different than here in So Cal or other areas. AWDs in particular are more sought after in the NE than in places with little or no snow. General rule of thumb, negotiate an invoice Sale Price Plus any manufacturer rebates you that are available. I don’t think there are any rebates for the Q7 this month, but I think they are waiving the security deposits, so that should save some money up front. If I were you, I would shoot for a sale price of $500 or so below invoice, without exceeding $500 over invoice. You can find out what the invoice price of the vehicle you want over at Edmunds. Make sure the MF and Residual as the same as the one’s posted or better. Try to avoid putting money towards cap cost reduction. Opt for Multiple Security Deposits to lower the MF if necessary. In NYC, you will have to pay for your sales taxes upfront, so be sure to factor that in to your initial costs. Your fees are pretty much your standard inception fees (1st payment, dmv, bank fee, doc fee, state and county fees) I would expect about $1500-$2000 in fees PLUS sales tax. Have the dealer break it down so you know. Sometimes they like to hide fees here and there.
G, thank for the excellent explanation that you provided me. I went to antoher dealer and negotiated a new deal for $599/month plus tax for 42 months for a Premium Plus with $0 down.
MSRP – $42,700
Sales Price – $39,800
Inception fees – About $1600
Money Factor = 0.00145
Residual – 46%
State tax – 7%
@Veronica. It is certainly better than the original offer. However, the numbers don’t exactly add up. I’m getting around $605 with sales tax ($566 without), no money down, just inception fees due at signing. Your quote is $33 more per month, assuming tax is not included. You may want to check what’s being rolled into the lease. Ask the dealer for the Cap Cost. Generally speaking the Sale Price should be the Cap Cost if you are not rolling any fees into the lease loan and pay all fees up front.
I fogot to add that it is for 12,000 miles.
G – Thanks for running such a great website! I could use some help as well. I am looking at leasing a 2010 Q7 TDI, Premium Plus with the warm weather package, towing package, the 20″ wheels and the floor mats/trunk mat. San Diego dealer is listing it at $60,525, but I’m considering offering between $56,500 and $57,000. Does that sound right? At those prices, what kind of lease payment should I be shooting for on a 24 mo and 36 mo lease? Thanks in advance!
@mike. no problem mike! glad you find it useful. Regarding your Q7, if you picked out a Q7 with a $60525 MSRP and offered $56,500 as the sale price, you should expect to pay around the following (with tax of 8.75%) terms:
24/10k – $1150
24/12k – $1176
24/15k – $1228
36/10k – $955
36/12k – $971
36/15k – $1005
This is assuming you pay all of your inception fees upfront, which should amount to around $2000 due at signing (give or take a couple hundred bucks). Your inception fees are your 1st month, dmv, bank fee, dealer doc fee, county and state fees. They are waiving the security deposit right now, that should save you hundreds up front.
I think the sale price you are thinking of offering just shy of 7% off MSRP, which I think its probably the most you would probably get. If you are an existing Audi customer though, there’s an additional $3000 in customer cash from Audi that is available to you. If you aren’t, see if you can find a family member that does and use their mailing address to qualify for the cash. I think their policy is that as long as there’s a family member living with you, you will qualify for loyalty cash. With the loyalty cash, it would put you at around $883 per month on a 36/12k term. Wow this is one expensive car. Haahaa.
You might also try asking your dealer regarding Multiple Security Deposits. Your out of pocket will increase, but you will effectively buy-down the money factor, making your payments a bit lower. The security deposits you put down will then be refunded at the end of the lease term or in the event of a theft or total-loss accident. Whatever you do, do not put CAP COST REDUCTION on this car. In the event of theft/accident, that money is GONE, nothing is refunded.
G,
I finally signed a contract for 2010 3.6 prim plus / 19″tires/ floor mats black/ MSRP 54,825 36m/10k for $725/m plus 4,500 due at signing which includes taxes, dmv, bank fee and first month payment. plus I got Audi care Any comments?
BTW what is MF and RV for 42 month lease? I only see on your site for 24,36 and 48 m
Thanks
@alex. generally i don’t like posting the unconventional lease terms because i dont’ recommend them for most people. Many states, such as CA, have yearly registration renewals and expensive ones too. Paying for full year and only driving the car 3 months or 6 months and having to pay it again really doesn’t make sense to me. Another thing is the tire wear. 42 months is just too long which means $200+ per tire when lease is up. Too much money, not worth it to me. besides, most dealers I talk to don’t recommend them because that’s just a way for banks to cut your lease short and bring you back into the showroom.
As for you lease is concerned, looks like you took like almost 8% off the MSRP on this car. I was expecting about 7% at most. Not bad at all.
G,
as far as I’m aware of there is only $1000 loyalty credit available if you had Audi and you are leasing Audi again. What $3000 cash are you talking about? can elaborate please?
Thanks
@alex. http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?styleid=101202555&popuppage=on
There’s a $1000 and a $2000. They said it can be combined with current incentives and special lease promos. Definitely worth verifying with the dealer. Would be nice to get both.
For unconventional, I mean any lease that ends before a year. 27, 30, 39, 42. The 27 and 30 month leases end before the 36 month cycle, which means paying registration twice in one year. 39 and 42 month leases end before 48 months, so you have to pay for a full 4th year and only drive it 3-6 months and then you pay again. Registration fees in CA are around $400 per year for a $35,000 car. So you can imagine how much it would be for a car that’s in the 50k-60k range. Right now, I have 32k miles on my wife’s TSX and the tires look like they are in good shape (I rotate them every oil change), so at 36k, I think the tires should still hold up. I’ve leased 48 month leases twice before and I have had to replace tires on them about 6 months before the end of the lease (or 42 months). I will never do that again. My G37 lease is a 39 month lease right now and I really regret it because 36 month lease wasn’t all the much more. However, I plan to take advantage of Infiniti’s “pull-ahead” program (if available then) to get off 3 months before it ends.
so what you are saying is : 42 month unconventional lease term and 48 conventional lease term? You did post 48 month term… it is a good point regarding tires.
I got it…I’m glad I found this site.. Thanks man for your help
I think $2000 rebate is for TDI model.. no?
is dealer allow to hide this rebate/s and not telling about to consumer?
yes, any unclaimed customer cash ends up being dealer profit, so you have to be well inform when it comes to rebates.
I think it’s $1000 for lease and $2000 for finance/purchase
Thanks again G.
I just realized that when I left a deposit, on the receipt there is no VIN number. Is this something I should I wary about?
The dealers says there is no VIN # yet…
I wouldn’t be too concern about it. Its just a deposit, you can always get it back if the deal falls through. As long as no papers are signed and the deposit isn’t cash, I think are fairly well protected.
Have you ever had a dealer not provide MF and residuals they are using when negotiating a deal. We were at an Audi dealer in California looking at a Q5 Prestige w/Sline and negotiated a car price of $53500. With 5K down, he came back with a payment of $1195 and said the residual was 41%. I went home and did the math (#1 that residual seems way low compared to published) and the only way they can get to that Monthly payment is if they use a Money Factor of .00434 (10.42%). I know the Prestiges are hard to get, but this seems ridiculous.
Help – any thoughts?
@jillian. I have always pushed a dealer to provide me with the money factor and residual value. Any dealer that refuses to do so risks losing business from me. The fact is, if I am going to borrow money from someone, I need to know how much I am borrowing and how much interest I am going to be charged. It is a consumer’s right to know those numbers PRIOR to signing a contract. Now regarding your lease, I would NEVER lease a Q5 for nearly $1200 per month with $5k. That’s an insult if you ask me. Feel free to disclose the dealership if you want to, so the rest of us know who to avoid.
If they won’t provide it don’t do business with them.
$1195 a month w/ 5k down for a $53k car is utterly insane.
it happened to me too when a salesman did not want to give me MF and RV.
Try to tell them that you are ready to do the deal… You can always say NO
They are like a women you need to make them jealous and hungry 🙂
Hey there – this website is great.
Got the following quote – 2010 Q5 Premium Plus with Navigation. 36/12 with $2500 out of pocket and inclusive of my $500Â loyalty money. The lease is $675 to $689 per month.
Is this a good deal?
@john. I am going to need more information than that to estimate your payments properly. Please provide the MSRP, Sale Price, MF, Residual used to derive those payments. IF you can get more details about the fees your paying, that would be great as well.
Hey G,
DO you remember I mentioned to you that there is no vin # on my receipt.
I got a phone call from the dealership that the car I was looking for was sold out. They are refunding my deposit but they did run my credit report prior getting the car… do you have any comments?
@alex. wow, that is wicked of them to do that to you, specially after running your credit. I would get in the face of the GM and ask them to find you an alternate vehicle that fits your requirements. That is so unprofessional of them. I once put down a deposit on my 2001 325i while it was on the boat. I never got the vin, but I did get enough details about the car to feel comfortable enough that I was putting a deposit on something. I never had my credit run though, so I don’t know what that was all about. Just a note for everyone, DO NOT have your credit run until there’s a car on the driveway and you a ready to sign finance papers to take that baby home. Get yourself a free FICO report and bring it with you if the dealer is skeptical to deal with you, but do not have your credit run unless the car is on the lot. I guard my credit score pretty tightly. I’ve had a Nissan sales guy wanting to run my credit just to test drive a Z. He’s reason was “this is a very expensive car and we want to make sure you are serious”. Haahaa. Right. This is Schaier’s Nissan & Hyundai of Long Beach. AVOID!!!! I test drove four G37s (coupe and sedans) multiple times and not once did they run my credit.
hah thanks for your quick reply. guess what?? they called me to offer different car which cost more ~$60 a month and I said no I do not want this car just proceed with my refund. Then the guy came back to me and said we can offer you this Q7 for the same price….. I’m like what????
@alex. tell him you want to see ALL the numbers. They owe it to you after all. All these games, I tell you. Remember, if the leasing experience starts to go south, move on. Not worth the hassle.
Hey G,
Thanks so much for your comments. Ok. I just got a quote for a 2010 Q7, 3.6, Premium Plus, 20 inch wheels and running boards. MSRP: 56475, Negotiated Price: 53573. The numbers just about the same as what you have: 36-month | 10k miles | residual 47% | .00163 base money factor. They have me at $881 a month, with 5650 down. That sounds high to me… Am I missing something, or is that a legit number? Remember I live in NYC, so I know that shoots some numbers up.
Thanks!
@jay. It looks like you are basically paying for all inception fees upfront + sales tax. The payments are in line with the MSRP, sale price, MF and residual. No problems there. I would recommend getting a breakdown of the $5650 to make sure the money is going to the right places. Lastly, I think you need to knock down the price some more. You are getting barely 5% off the sticker price ($2902). I would suggest shooting for 6-7% instead, so about $500-$1000 more off what you already have knocked off. That should drop the payments down $20-$30 and save you a little bit on the drive off too.
G,
Ok I finally got my Q7. it’s $700/m 42m prim plus. MSRP 56,325 plus Audi care
$4300 out of pocket incl taxes.
I know you do not recommend to pay taxes up front but I’ve learned when you adding taxes to your monthly payment you are actually paying more because the interest will be applied to your taxes too. The Interest is ~$400.
They charge taxes on $1000 loyalty credit too. It’s a robbery…
People this process is insane… I went true hell before I got this numbers…
@alex. if your state requires taxes to be paid up front, then there probably isn’t much you can do about it. And you are correct that by paying your taxes upfront, you do save on financing. However, it all depends on how that is applied. If your dealer rolls in taxes into the vehicle, then takes your cash as cap cost reduction, you are essentially paying taxes on your taxes. Haahaa. Wicked isn’t it? But yes, they tax you on everything you put in and I concur with it being an insane process.